D.A.L.L.T. & Predestination

Brad and I decided that this would make a great post to the site, as it is an example of some of the things we are trying to accomplish here – Debating, Asking, Listening, Learning, Talking. (DALLT).  As Brad mentions, we are just skimming the surface here, so we’d welcome your thoughts and comments.

It all started with me asking Brad last night the simple question of, "what are you thoughts on predestination vs. free will?"  Simple right?!  After a 15 minute lecture ; ) Brad got off his soap box and had to go eat.  We picked things up today over email…  So here for your enjoyment and/or disgust is our conversation:

Brad:

Hey man...I think that you need to take THIS medicine.  I got on Pipers website this morning and saw that the "sermon of the day" was on Romans 9.  There are some God glorifying statements in it and I wanted to pass it on.

Here is that link:
The Absolute Sovereignty of God: What Romans 9 Is About

There is also a wealth of sermons and notes that explain with generosity and humility the position of the "Doctrines of Grace."  Most of them are posted under "God" and "Salvation" in the Theology section.  Here is that Link.

We will talk more.  I just want you to know that when I entered this discussion about 7 years ago, I was completely adamant about my "Free Will" for good reason.  I was adamant that this is the only way that God could be loving.  Dr. Piper, through the book "Desiring God" (this is a link to the online book...read chapter one on the Happiness of God) took me on a journey through scripture and humbly showed that God was at the bottom of all things and through it, he is ever loving.  I am deeply indebted to this pastor and his work.  I am sure that you will find that he wants to simply have a high, exalted and unshaking view of God in all things, including the salvation of men.  My prayer is that you find this refreshing. 

Thanks for letting me be a part of the process.  You are a good friend.

Matt:
One question that popped in my mind this morning is that Jesus says - I am the way the truth and the life.  No one comes to the father except through me.  He goes on to say that He and the father are one.  So if the man in woods or on the island sees that creation screams for a creator and worships that creator by the stirring of the Holy Spirit, then isn't he technically worshiping Jesus and thus can it be said that he "knows" him, even though he has not heard the actual name "Jesus"?

Brad:

Good point.  I would argue that the only problem with that is that although the Father and Son are "one" in the fact that they are God, however, they are distinct in their roles and work in community.  So, they are three distinct persons within the God-head.  I know it is confusing, but when Jesus prays to the father, it is one "person" talking to another, yet...one God.  This makes my head hurt.

Saying this, Jesus must still be a part of the equation, otherwise, we don't need him at all.  To be the savior of the world, he must be realized as the messiah, the Christ, the Son of God and God's plan for redeeming mankind. No matter what his name (Jesus, Jesu Cristo, yeshua) He is still necessary.

I am putting a link here to another Piper sermon from Romans

Hope this helps. 

You:

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Comments

[Sam Davidson]

I can't wait to see how this one pans out...

I recommend looking into some Lutheran (the denomination, not the man) doctrinal statements. Also, study the Augustine vs. Pelagius arguments of the 4th century. Once you look at the history of the debate, THEN pick up Piper ONLY IF you balance him with Clark Pinnock.

Play fair, boys (and girls)...

[Brad Jones]

Sam, I was wondering how long it was going to take you to jump in on this. We will get to Pelagius/Augustine soon enough...but Pinnock? Is that really the balance? (smiling as I type)...I feel like I am a freshman in college again!!!

[Sam Davidson]

Good call on Pinnock...so who could balance Piper??? Buddha?

[Brad Jones]

I would love to actually see Boyd/Pinnock on one side and Piper/Reymond on the other debating Open Theism and God's Sovereignty.